TheINC Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) For those looking for a primer on what Monday's hearing is about and the possible outcomes, this article sums it up pretty well... https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/cowboys/2017/10/01/next-step-ezekiel-elliotts-case-will-play-huge-role-continues-play-must-serve-suspension Edited October 2, 2017 by TheINC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montgrove Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, GriffeySwag said: You say it so emphatically, yet you're basing it on no facts what so ever. The preserving him argument is nonsense. Fact: DMC's been inactive every game. Fact: The coaches flat out said that Morris earned the backup job by outplaying DMC in the pre-season. Morris was much better at running in between the tackles and taking care of the football. Fact: Morris was getting starter reps leading up to Week 1 because they weren't sure if Zeke was going to suit up Week 1 vs. the Giants or not. Of course. I'm not on the Dallas coaching staff I'm only logically saying thats the reason why Alfred Morris has not had a starting job in years , due to the fact that he can't handle pass-catching duties whether it be Pass Pro or catching the ball. Dallas will be playing from behind all year long. This is not like the last couple seasons that they were playing from a ahead and playing keep-away. Lance Dunbar and other receiving backs are no longer there. That's why Zeke's ability to catch the ball made Dunbar disposable. So again logically speaking, say Zeke was not in the picture and Dallas continues to play from behind, who would be on the field in hurry up or on passing Downs? If Morris is on the field they become extremely one-dimensional. I guess that could happen if they think Morris runs the ball better at this point but I can't imagine that's better for the team. Right now Dallas goes into games with just Zeke, Morris and Rod Smith who plays special teams and is a fullback as backup running backs. Why would McFadden be inactive? It doesn't make any sense unless Dallas is planning on potentially losing Zeke and having the very fragile McFadden preserved. For the record, I AM NOT saying if Zeke goes away Morris will not hold value. I think both of them will but they will be a headache eating into each other's value. They will not be one back commanding the ball. Edited October 2, 2017 by montgrove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Varys Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, TheINC said: For those looking for a primer on what Monday's hearing is about and the possible outcomes, this article sums it up pretty well... https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/cowboys/2017/10/01/next-step-ezekiel-elliotts-case-will-play-huge-role-continues-play-must-serve-suspension Thanks for this. Gonna try to sum it up here for my own benefit... Quote oral hearing by the 5th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals at 1 p.m. Monday in New Orleans. This vs Mazzant who is a District judge in Texas. Quote The NFL and Elliott/NFL Players Association will present arguments on whether the U.S. District Court of the Eastern District of Texas had subject matter jurisdiction in Elliott's case. So this hearing is about whether or not Mazzant's hearing was even legitimate. Quote Legal experts say it's rare for the 5th Circuit to hold an oral hearing on a stay motion. That a hearing is scheduled could be taken as good news for the NFL. The court asked for both sides to turn in briefs on subject matter jurisdiction, which were filed Wednesday evening. The request indicates that the court is focusing on whether Elliott and the NFLPA properly filed their lawsuit on Aug. 31 to vacate the NFL's punishment in the Eastern District of Texas, a court Elliott's side hoped would be favorable. The suit was filed hours after the conclusion of Elliott's appeal hearing with the NFL but before arbitrator Harold Henderson ruled to uphold the league's discipline. The hearing to request a preliminary injunction was held in Sherman on Sept. 5, and Henderson's ruling was issued while the hearing was in process. Daniel Wallach, a lawyer and sports law expert who has avidly followed the case, has said that Elliott has a strong case for the stay to be denied because of the irreparable harm he would suffer if he served the suspension before the case was resolved. But Wallach said subject matter jurisdiction trumps all. "Nothing outweighs jurisdiction," Wallach said. "If the court believes there's no jurisdiction, then it's toast." Doesn't look great for Zeke. However... they filed after the abritration (but before the results) on the grounds that the arbitration itself wasn't fair. And that's what led Mazzant to grant the injunction -- the lack of fundamental fairness of the process. Zeke's camp argues that the output of the process (i.e. arbiter Henderson's upholding of the suspension) was irrelevant to their lawsuit, because it was all about the process itself. Every possible outcome, and your guess is as good as mine which way it goes: Quote It's possible the judges could rule by the end of next week, before Dallas' Week 5 game against the Green Bay Packers. The Cowboys have a bye in Week 6. The court could deny the stay, which would keep Elliott on the field as other legal fights play out. The court could grant the stay, which would allow the NFL to enforce the suspension immediately. The court could grant the stay, vacate the injunction and order Mazzant to dismiss the case, as the NFL as requested, on the grounds that it never should've been heard in the lower court in the Eastern District of Texas in the first place. If this happens, the whole process will likely start over in the Southern District of New York, where the NFL is headquartered and wants the case. Elliott's team would then likely request a temporary restraining order/preliminary injunction from the judge there, which Elliott would need to be granted to remain on the field. Quote What are the arguments by Elliott and the NFLPA? -- The union's allegation that the NFL breached the collective bargaining agreement by withholding evidence from the NFLPA and Elliott before the suit was filed gave the district court subject matter jurisdiction. There was nothing else the NFLPA could do but brace for the imminent arbitration decision. -- Exhaustion of remedies (waiting for the arbitration decision to be issued) is a consideration but not a jurisdictional prerequisite. -- Waiting for the arbitrator to issue the ruling would have only prolonged Elliott's deprivation of rights, as he faced imminent and irreparable harm. -- The judge's ruling came after the arbitration decision was made. -- The courts have recognized the exhaustion principle doesn't relieve them of their duty to step in where there is a dearth of fundamental fairness. Looks like good arguments to me. Quote What are the league's arguments? -- The district court lacked jurisdiction over the premature lawsuit. -- The Federal Arbitration Act confines federal-court jurisdiction to review of an arbitral award that has been made. -- The last thing Congress wanted the Labor Management Relations Act to do was allow the legal system to intervene more into ongoing labor disputes. -- Courts don't allow rulings that happen after the suit was filed to make up for a premature filing. Such an exception would invite every plaintiff to file a place-holder lawsuit, allowing forum shopping like the NFLPA engaged in here. -- Each day the injunction remains in effect undermines the NFL's bargained-for right to impose swift discipline on players who commit domestic violence. Also good arguments. I'm bracing for a stay. That is, a suspension. It appears there's enough legal precedent that says Zeke's camp jumped the gun and filed in the wrong spot. That's what this hearing today is about -- the process Zeke went through to fight the process the NFL went though. Prediction: The 5th circuit will suspend the East Texas District's suspension of Ezekiel Elliot's suspension. JFC this is stupid. Edited October 2, 2017 by Lord_Varys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiveohnine Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Guy has a big game, scores a couple TDs, and this thread is (understandably) still all about his legal issues. Exactly why I passed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burninglegs Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 12 minutes ago, Lord_Varys said: Thanks for this. Gonna try to sum it up here for my own benefit... Thanks for posting that summary. Definitely seems like the big issue (the one that matters) will be jurisdiction and whether the NFLPA jumped the gun and broke arbitration by filing the case in court before the arbitration route was complete and finalized. Seems like the NFLPA wasn't acting in good faith with this action. The one part of the NFLPA that I am still confused about regarding Zeke not having a fair chance is the whole thing about Kia Roberts' opinion that there wasn't enough evidence to suspend Zeke. Ok, that was her opinion. But we know that Lisa Friel's testimony under oath stated that Goodell know about Roberts' opinion. We also know that Kia Roberts helped author the report that NFL used to suspend Zeke. So her opinion was heard and was given consideration. She was not silenced. She was not fired. Her opinion might have been different than what the NFL ultimately decided to do, but that is fine. This isn't some court case where the NFL needs beyond a reasonable doubt. The CBA gives the NFL a lot of leeway in this regard. Also worth mentioning that in the official report Roberts and Friel made no official recommendation regarding punishment to Goodell. So I don't get how this whole thing regarding Roberts not believing there was enough evidence to suspend Zeke = Zeke not getting a fair process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KuNiT21 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Are we certain who the cuff is for Zeke? I need to prepare here. I have DMC on my bench but I'm starting to think Morris is going to be the guy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montgrove Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 I'm guessing you didn't read the last two pages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burninglegs Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 10 minutes ago, KuNiT21 said: Are we certain who the cuff is for Zeke? I need to prepare here. I have DMC on my bench but I'm starting to think Morris is going to be the guy? There are three camps. 1. DMC 2. Morris 3. RBBC There are arguments for all of them to be valid theories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KuNiT21 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Just now, burninglegs said: There are three camps. 1. DMC 2. Morris 3. RBBC There are arguments for all of them to be valid theories. Thank You. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavs93 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 What is the current Percentage that zeke gets suspended this year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban2014 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) As cuffs go there is 2 ways to think about it. 1. Morris is the clear cuff due to him starting all those games. 2. Dallas is keeping DMC fresh since they suspect Zeke is getting punished. No one knows Edited October 2, 2017 by urban2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngrice Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 9 minutes ago, KuNiT21 said: Are we certain who the cuff is for Zeke? I need to prepare here. I have DMC on my bench but I'm starting to think Morris is going to be the guy? There are two ways to look at it. Obviously Morris has been his backup so far this year so he has to be right?? Dallas has been bracing for Zeke's suspension and sitting Dmac to make sure he was healthy if Zeke got suspended. My opinion is Dmac's all around skill set better fits what dallas wants to do on offense. So he will slide into Zeke's spot and Morris will continue to be the backup but get around 40 percent of the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frog34 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 If he gets suspended I hope it's immediately. Have a solid 3-1 team right now and likely to make playoffs, but need Zeke for the ship. Man would it suck if this drags out for a month and he misses the fantasy playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Varys Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 34 minutes ago, burninglegs said: Thanks for posting that summary. Definitely seems like the big issue (the one that matters) will be jurisdiction and whether the NFLPA jumped the gun and broke arbitration by filing the case in court before the arbitration route was complete and finalized. Seems like the NFLPA wasn't acting in good faith with this action. It doesn't seem that way to me. The arbitration hearing was already completed, and "fundamental fairness" was already denied. Whether Henderson later upheld the suspension or not, Zeke already had a case because his process was flawed. 34 minutes ago, burninglegs said: The one part of the NFLPA that I am still confused about regarding Zeke not having a fair chance is the whole thing about Kia Roberts' opinion that there wasn't enough evidence to suspend Zeke. Ok, that was her opinion. But we know that Lisa Friel's testimony under oath stated that Goodell know about Roberts' opinion. We also know that Kia Roberts helped author the report that NFL used to suspend Zeke. So her opinion was heard and was given consideration. She was not silenced. She was not fired. Her opinion might have been different than what the NFL ultimately decided to do, but that is fine. This isn't some court case where the NFL needs beyond a reasonable doubt. The CBA gives the NFL a lot of leeway in this regard. Also worth mentioning that in the official report Roberts and Friel made no official recommendation regarding punishment to Goodell. So I don't get how this whole thing regarding Roberts not believing there was enough evidence to suspend Zeke = Zeke not getting a fair process. Kia Roberts is only one piece of it: Quote The petition claims Elliott was not given a fair process when he was denied an opportunity to confront his accuser and additionally when the testimony of Roger Goodell was not compelled during the appeal hearing. Elliott's lawsuit claims he was not allowed to look at the investigative notes from the NFL's interviews with the accuser. (https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/ezekiel-elliott-sues-the-nfl-claims-a-conspiracy-to-hide-critical-information/) Whether or not these arguments are legitimate has now become an entirely separate discussion at this point. Judge Mazzant already ruled that they are legitimate. Per the CBA, an appeal hearing needs to have fundamental fairness. Zeke filed his suit in Mazzant's court after the appeal hearing took place. Mazzant judged that he did not have fundamental fairness -- for all of the reasons listed, not just because of Kia Roberts. The issue at hand today is whether or not Mazzant had jurisdiction to rule, and whether the timing was right. Today we'll hear arguments about the procedure used to determine whether or not the procedure used to handle Zeke's appeal was legitimate. Edited October 2, 2017 by Lord_Varys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gufomel Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Any place to get either a live feed of the hearing, or live updates? What time does it start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiveohnine Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 there are almost never any cameras in a courtroom. Usually no phones either. So you kinda have to wait for the reporters to walk out and start tweeting, usually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burninglegs Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, Fiveohnine said: there are almost never any cameras in a courtroom. Usually no phones either. So you kinda have to wait for the reporters to walk out and start tweeting, usually. Looks like the Ninth Circuit Court offers live streaming of some sort for oral arguments: https://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/media/live_oral_arguments.php The Fifth Circuit Court doesn't offer any live streaming that I can find, but does post oral argument recordings as MP3s. Not sure how long it takes them to post them to the website: http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/oral-argument-information/oral-argument-recordings If anyone is in New Orleans, they could go to the court building and attending the oral arguments if they are interested: http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/oral-argument-information/attending-oral-arguments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owenmills Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 31 minutes ago, Cavs93 said: What is the current Percentage that zeke gets suspended this year It's constantly changing, but I just checked and it's 54% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiveohnine Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 I actually wouldn't be surprised if there were a prop bet on it in Vegas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billydough Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 What a circus. Fitting for the NFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gufomel Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 6 minutes ago, Fiveohnine said: I actually wouldn't be surprised if there were a prop bet on it in Vegas. Any place to find out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiveohnine Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 16 minutes ago, gufomel said: Any place to find out? http://cowboyswire.usatoday.com/2017/07/17/much-ado-odds-still-favor-cowboys-ezekiel-elliott-avoiding-suspension/ That's kinda outdated. Back in July No was a -170 favorite. Which is almost 2 to 1. I'm guessing the Yes bet is probably the favorite by now. This from back in August had the over/under at 4.5 games. It's now pretty clearly 6 or zero, making an over/under bet kinda pointless. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/08/17/nfl-prop-bets-ezekiel-elliott-sportsbook-rushing-dallas-cowboys/577161001/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffin727 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) I can't be alone looking at this a little differently with all the injuries this weekend. Not sure I can salvage a startable team anymore if Zeke is out. Edited October 2, 2017 by griffin727 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tts42572 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, youngrice said: There are two ways to look at it. Obviously Morris has been his backup so far this year so he has to be right?? Dallas has been bracing for Zeke's suspension and sitting Dmac to make sure he was healthy if Zeke got suspended. My opinion is Dmac's all around skill set better fits what dallas wants to do on offense. So he will slide into Zeke's spot and Morris will continue to be the backup but get around 40 percent of the work. I agree with you. If Zeke were out, I think McFadden would be the starter and Morris would keep his backup touches. Maybe Morris would get a few more carries than he's been getting but McFadden is the better all around player IMO. What a circus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pooskay Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 this is has RBBC written all over it. DMC is 30 and can't handle a big workload. with all that said, let's hope Zeke's suspension is delayed until next season. I guess we find out today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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