Ezekiel Elliott 2017 Season Outlook

[Sizzlebshu]

46 minutes ago, jonasdash said:

I can try.  Let's define a few things first.  

1) an Injunction is where you stop a previous ruling from taking place until the court can fully hear the case and decide if the ruling was made fairly.  

2)  a case being Ripe means that a case is ready to be heard by the Supreme Court because all the other avenues for determining the fairness of the case have been exhausted.

My thought is that the higher court, the 5th Circuit, would like to make a ruling that would become standard basis for future court matters so that they will not be expected to handle cases that the lower court is within their capability to handle and have already made rulings about.  The basis they want to set up would be that in the future, requests for an injunction which are made to lower courts are still valid to be ruled on by the lower court if the lower court finds the case has become Ripe in the time between when it was submitted and when it was ruled upon.  

In essence, the 5th Circuit wants to get this sort of thing 'on the books' so that in the future, they will have grounds to say 'we've already looked at similar cases to yours and we've already said XXXXX, so motion is granted/denied (stop bothering us, we're busy with legit cases) 

The question is if XXXXX is going to be YES - the NFL is right , or NO - the NFL is wrong.  I believe they will say NO - the NFL is wrong.   

2

Your definition of ripeness is techinically  incorrect but other than that the analysis is fine. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Sizzlebshu

[tpat30]

2 minutes ago, Rainyy said:

 

I honestly wasn't that impressed at his performance versus the Giants. I know they're a stingy run defense and 4.3 YPC is solid, but the O-line played well and he mostly just "took what he was given."

 

First time owning Zeke and I didn't get to watch a lot of him last year. Honestly he doesn't seem like a special or electric runner. Just a good mixture of speed/power and a great line. What am I missing. 

 

Still think he is easily a Top 5 option when healthy because of the volume, line, and sufficient talent to make use of it. But I was a little uninspired. 

 

His vision lacked a little, and that's what he was great at last year. Seeing the next hole or the next cut. His lateral quickness is nice. He's a physical runner and athletic enough to leap over defenders, take them head on, and make them miss. But yea, you would've had to watch him all last year.

[Rainyy]

4 minutes ago, tpat30 said:

 

His vision lacked a little, and that's what he was great at last year. Seeing the next hole or the next cut. His lateral quickness is nice. He's a physical runner and athletic enough to leap over defenders, take them head on, and make them miss. But yea, you would've had to watch him all last year.

 

See to me that physical stuff - jumping over people, body checking a defender to the ground - that's mostly aesthetic. That happens on a substantial minority of carries, and isn't going to have a significant impact on YPC in the aggregate. It's not like Zeke has discovered a way to effortlessly leap over defenders as he rips off 60-yard runs. I mean, it's cool on tape and it's nice to see someone body up a defender for a couple extra yards, but way too much of a deal is made over that stuff. 

 

I suppose you could analogize it to something like dunks or buzzer beaters in basketball. Or the countless number of "grit" players in sports who are overrated because of their perceived effort, but who lack technical ability. 

 

Not trying to be too down on Zeke because I love him for fantasy, but I am legitimately curious why the majority of folks consider him an elite runner. I am clearly missing something. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Rainyy

[jonasdash]

6 minutes ago, Sizzlebshu said:

Your definition of ripeness is techinically  incorrect but other than that the analysis is fine. 

 

I wavered about whether to leave it as Court or Supreme Court, erred on the higher court side, which I think is where I was technically incorrect - yes?

[Rainyy]

8 minutes ago, Sizzlebshu said:

Your definition of ripeness is techinically  incorrect but other than that the analysis is fine. 

 

So was his definition of "injunction," if we're counting. But I doubt anyone cares about such legalisms. 

 

Moreover, explanatory power is more important than pedantry. I found his post helpful to the average reader. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Rainyy

[tpat30]

8 minutes ago, Rainyy said:

 

See to me that physical stuff - jumping over people, body checking a defender to the ground - that's mostly aesthetic. That happens on a substantial minority of carries, and isn't going to have a significant impact on YPC in the aggregate. It's not like Zeke has discovered a way to effortlessly leap over defenders as he rips off 60-yard runs. I mean, it's cool on tape and it's nice to see someone body up a defender for a couple extra yards, but way too much of a deal is made over that stuff. 

 

I suppose you could analogize it to something like dunks or buzzer beaters in basketball. Or the countless number of "grit" players in sports who are overrated because of their perceived effort, but who lack technical ability. 

 

Not trying to be too down on Zeke because I love him for fantasy, but I am legitimately curious why the majority of folks consider him an elite runner. I am clearly missing something. 

 

Just watch some highlights. The O-line does open some nice holes, but it's what he does after. He's great at making people miss at the 2nd and 3rd level. Quick to cut while maintaining speed. His lateral quickness is one of the best. When nothing is there up the gut, he can effortlessly cut out and take it off tackle. Had really nice vision last year. And has speed to take it the distance. Seems like he gained a little weight this offseason though. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by tpat30

[jonasdash]

7 minutes ago, Rainyy said:

 

So was his definition of "injunction," if we're counting. But I doubt anyone cares about such legalisms. 

 

Moreover, explanatory power is more important than pedantry. I found his post helpful to the average reader. 

2

Fair. I didn't want to just cut and paste the definition and tried to make it as layman friendly as possible.  

[boshtrich17]

What do you think the percentage is that his suspension is upheld and goes into effect week 5? 

[burninglegs]

40 minutes ago, jonasdash said:

 

That is certainly not all you need to know. 

 

 

Not sure who Frank is, but here is some legal analysis of the case as we wait for the 5th Circuit to make its decision from Michael McCann who is an attorney and Associate Dean at the University of New Hampshire School of Law. 

 

51 minutes ago, jonasdash said:

 

That is wholly beside the point.  The CBA requires specifics of due process to be met during an investigation and appeals process to enable him to make a ruling, if the NFL violate these terms they are in breach and thus subject to litigation. 

 

 

That is incorrect. Read what Clement's key arguments are per the NFL CBA and specifically article 46. 

 

 

 

Quote

Clement’s key arguments

In an appeal of a preliminary injunction, the appellant (the party making the appeal) must establish that the judge incorrectly applied the law in deciding to grant the injunction. This means whether Elliott committed domestic violence or whether his accuser, Tiffany Thompson, lied or exaggerated are not the relevant topics for the Fifth Circuit to explore. Instead, the critical question is whether Judge Mazzant incorrectly applied the law in placing the proceedings on pause until the judge has an opportunity to review the merits of Elliott’s accompanying lawsuit. Such a review by Judge Mazzant might not occur until well into 2018, which presents an unacceptable timetable from the league’s vantage point.

 

Clement began his brief by stressing the “substantial deference owed to a labor arbitrator’s decision.” In this context, the arbitrator is Harold Henderson, the former NFL executive vice president who presided over Elliott’s appeal of the suspension issued by NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell on Aug. 11. Henderson upheld the suspension on Sept. 5—only hours after Judge Mazzant presided over a court hearing in which he reviewed Elliott’s petition for a preliminary injunction.

 

Clement asserts that Judge Mazzant neglected to consider that “no court challenge may be filed until after the arbitrator has ruled.” As I explained in previous articles, the NFL has offered a plausible argument that Judge Mazzant should have waited to review Henderson’s decision until Henderson actually issued his arbitration award (decision). Instead, a court hearing took place before then.

 

To that end, Clement charges “federal courts do not have jurisdiction to review un-issued and still-pending arbitration awards.” Clement thus contends that the legal dispute was not yet “ripe” since Elliott’s appeal under Article 46 of the CBA had not yet finished.

 

Clement further highlights that Judge Mazzant effectively gave procedural safeguards to Elliott that Elliott’s union, the NFLPA, had failed to obtain in collective bargaining. As Clement observes, “Article 46 imposes only one discovery obligation: Before the hearing, the parties shall ‘exchange copies of any exhibits upon which they intend to rely.’” Indeed, the CBA does not list “procedures for compelling witnesses, conducting cross-examination, or introducing evidence.” Clement thus hopes the Fifth Circuit will regard Judge Mazzant’s reasoning as undermining the contract—the CBA—that empowers the NFL to discipline Elliott and empowers Elliott to challenge that discipline.

 

 

Quote

In addition, Clement draws particular attention to the substantial deference accorded to Goodell under Article 46. For instance, according to Clement, Goodell did not “have to” receive and review disciplinary recommendations offered by investigators. Such recommendations are only required, Clement asserts, “if desired” by Goodell. This is an important point since Goodell did not speak with Kia Roberts, the NFL’s Director of Investigations and the only co-league investigator who interviewed Thompson. From Clement’s perspective, Goodell was under no legal obligation to speak with Roberts.

 

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/09/15/nfl-calls-audible-legal-strategy-ezekiel-elliott-case

 

 

 

 

[tpat30]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hrlrYzCioiI

 

This is a solid highlights video that shows that lateral quickness, acceleration, cutting, and athleticism.

[burninglegs]

For those wondering, here is Article 46 of the 2011 NFL CBA:

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

ARTICLE 46 COMMISSIONER DISCIPLINE

Section 1. League Discipline: Notwithstanding anything stated in Article 43:
(a) All disputes involving a fine or suspension imposed upon a player for conduct on the playing field (other than as described in Subsection (b) below) or involv- ing action taken against a player by the Commissioner for conduct detrimental to the integrity of, or public confidence in, the game of professional football, will be processed exclusively as follows: the Commissioner will promptly send written notice of his action to the player, with a copy to the NFLPA. Within three (3) business days following such written notification, the player affected thereby, or the NFLPA with the player’s approv-

al, may appeal in writing to the Commissioner.
(b) Fines or suspensions imposed upon players for unnecessary roughness or

unsportsmanlike conduct on the playing field with respect to an opposing player or players shall be determined initially by a person appointed by the Commissioner after consultation concerning the person being appointed with the Executive Director of the NFLPA, as promptly as possible after the event(s) in question. Such person will send written notice of his action to the player, with a copy to the NFLPA. Within three (3) business days following such notification, the player, or the NFLPA with his approval, may appeal in writing to the Commissioner.

(c) The Commissioner (under Subsection (a)), or the person appointed by the Commissioner under Subsection (b), shall consult with the Executive Director of the NFLPA prior to issuing, for on-field conduct, any suspension or fine in excess of

$50,000(.d) The schedule of fines for on-field conduct will be provided to the NFLPA prior to the start of training camp in each season covered under this Agree- ment. The 2011 schedule of fines, which has been provided to and accepted by the NFLPA, shall serve as the basis of discipline for the infractions indentified on that sche- dule. The designated minimum fine amounts will increase by 5% for the 2012 League Year, and each League Year thereafter during the term of this Agreement. Where cir- cumstances warrant, including, but not limited to, infractions that were flagrant and gratuitous, larger fines, suspension or other discipline may be imposed. On appeal, a player may assert, among other defenses, that any fine should be reduced because it is excessive when compared to the player’s expected earnings for the season in question. However, a fine may be reduced on this basis only if it exceeds 25 percent of one week of a player’s salary for a first offense, and 50 percent of one week of a player’s salary for a second offense. A player may also argue on appeal that the circumstances do not war- rant his receiving a fine above the amount stated in the schedule of fines.

Section 2. Hearings:
(a) Hearing Officers. For appeals under Section 1(a) above, the Commis-

sioner shall, after consultation with the Executive Director of the NFLPA, appoint one or more designees to serve as hearing officers. For appeals under Section 1(b) above, the parties shall, on an annual basis, jointly select two (2) or more designees to serve as hear- ing officers. The salary and reasonable expenses for the designees’ services shall be

shared equally by the NFL and the NFLPA. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the Com- missioner may serve as hearing officer in any appeal under Section 1(a) of this Article at his discretion.

(b) Representation. In any hearing provided for in this Article, a player may be accompanied by counsel of his choice. The NFLPA and NFL have the right to attend all hearings provided for in this Article and to present, by testimony or otherwise, any evidence relevant to the hearing.

(c) Telephone Hearings. Upon agreement of the parties, hearings under this Article may be conducted by telephone conference call or videoconference.

(d) Decision. As soon as practicable following the conclusion of the hear- ing, the hearing officer will render a written decision which will constitute full, final and complete disposition of the dispute and will be binding upon the player(s), Club(s) and the parties to this Agreement with respect to that dispute. Any discipline imposed pur- suant to Section 1(b) may only be affirmed, reduced, or vacated by the hearing officer, and may not be increased.

(e) Costs. Unless the Commissioner determines otherwise, each party will bear the cost of its own witnesses, counsel and other expenses associated with the ap-

peal.
(f) Additional Procedures for Appeals Under Section 1(a).
(i) Scheduling. Appeal hearings under Section 1(a) will be scheduled to

commence within ten (10) days following receipt of the notice of appeal, except that hearings on suspensions issued during the playing season (defined for this Section as the first preseason game through the Super Bowl) will be scheduled for the second Tuesday following the receipt of the notice of appeal, with the intent that the appeal shall be heard no fewer than eight (8) days and no more than thirteen (13) days following the suspension, absent mutual agreement of the parties or a finding by the hearing officer of extenuating circumstances. If unavailability of counsel is the basis for a continuance, a new hearing shall be scheduled on or before the Tuesday following the orignal hearing date, without exception.

(ii) Discovery. In appeals under Section 1(a), the parties shall exchange copies of any exhibits upon which they intend to rely no later than three (3) calendar days prior to the hearing. Failure to timely provide any intended exhibit shall preclude its introduction at the hearing.

(iii) Record; Posthearing Briefs. Unless the parties agree otherwise, all hearings conducted under Section 1(a) of this Article shall be transcribed. Posthearing briefs will not be permitted absent agreement of the NFL and NFLPA or the request of the hearing officer. If permitted, such briefs shall be limited to five pages (single-spaced) and must be filed no later than three (3) business days following the conclusion of the hearing.

Section 3. Time Limits: Each of the time limits set forth in this Article may be ex- tended by mutual agreement of the parties or by the hearing officer upon appropriate motion.

205

Section 4. One Penalty: The Commissioner and a Club will not both discipline a player for the same act or conduct. The Commissioner’s disciplinary action will preclude or supersede disciplinary action by any Club for the same act or conduct.

Section 5. Fine Money:
(a) Fines will be deducted at the rate of no more than $2,500 from each pay

period, if sufficient pay periods remain; or, if less than sufficient pay periods remain, the fine will be deducted in equal installments over the number of remaining pay pe- riods. For the 2016–2020 League Years, the amount will increase from a rate of $2,500 to $3,500 from each pay period.

(b) For any fine imposed upon a player under Section 1(b), no amount of the fine will be withheld from the player’s pay pending the outcome of the appeal, except that if: (i) the fine is imposed on or after the thirteenth (13th) week of the regular season; (ii) the player or the NFLPA does not timely appeal; or (iii) the hearing on a fine im- posed for conduct occurring through the thirteenth (13th) week of the regular season is delayed by the player or the NFLPA for any reason beyond the time provided for in Section 2(b) of this Article, the full amount of the fine shall be promptly collected.

(c) Unless otherwise agreed by the parties., fine money collected pursuant to this Article shall be allocated as follows: 50% to the Players Assistance Trust and 50% to charitable organizations jointly determined by the NFL and the NFLPA. In the absence of said joint determination, the NFL and the NFLPA shall each determine a charitable organization or organizations to which half of the second 50% shall be allocated.

 

[jonasdash]

@burninglegs  I don't want to clog this thread up with discussion on legalities, but Clement's assertations are of course going to be favoring the NFL - he's their lawyer.  If you review the actual documents that Judge Mazzant submitted with his issuance of the injunction, you'll see that it was ripe for review when the ruling was made and that article 46 does not give Goodell/Arbiter the ability to issue rulings without proper fairness being given.  

here are some pics of the most relevant parts:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJxpIrjUMAANKTf.jpg 
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJxrUOBVYAAVXXg.jpg 
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJPEyN7UIAAVzeU.jpg 
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJPDFqcVAAEvKtQ.jpg  

That said, the 5th Circuit will make their ruling and we'll see, but I think there is plenty of reason to think NFLPA's case has merit. 

[Pooskay]

so.......what are the chances Zeke's play for the ROS?

[Rainyy]

@burninglegsThere is a distinction between (1) how the arbitration hearing itself was conducted and (2) the degree to which the NFL's actions abided by the CBA. 

 

Regardless of the language of Article 46 (or any portion of the CBA), an arbitration hearing is required to have fundamental fairness. This is the key part of the Mazzant decision you are ignoring. 

 

Separately, Mazzant also pointed to areas where the NFL deviated from the CBA itself. This is why the claim was not "ripe." Mazzant bought the NFLPA's argument that the CBA was already violated before the arbitration hearing, and thus Zeke had an injury and claim. 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Rainyy

[Asys71]

50/50

[CrastersCreep]

3 minutes ago, Asys71 said:

50/50

In a sense - the answer is no one knows 

[TheAwakening]

abandon ship!

[Thinkingcap]

1 hour ago, Rainyy said:

@burninglegsThere is a distinction between (1) how the arbitration hearing itself was conducted and (2) the degree to which the NFL's actions abided by the CBA. 

 

Regardless of the language of Article 46 (or any portion of the CBA), an arbitration hearing is required to have fundamental fairness. This is the key part of the Mazzant decision you are ignoring. 

 

Separately, Mazzant also pointed to areas where the NFL deviated from the CBA itself. This is why the claim was not "ripe." Mazzant bought the NFLPA's argument that the CBA was already violated before the arbitration hearing, and thus Zeke had an injury and claim. 

 

 

Now this guy actually sounds like he has a legal background as opposed to other individuals who just started their 1L

[CyberneticGhostOfXMasPast]

Never arrested, charged, and the league's co-investigator said he shouldn't be suspended after speaking with the "victim" 

 

Goodell not so cleverly kept this info out of the report - and has been made to look like a fool throughout this process

 

my guess: what's done is done and if the NFL couldn't get their suspension through in the first place - it isn't happening

[kp96]

The NFL has already "won", even if it is overturned.  Goodell has been tasked, by the owners no less, with keeping the NFL brand image strong.  Whether or not Zeke actually did anything is probably irrelevant to Goodell.  The message is this...don't put yourself in these situations because we will come down on you hard if you make us look bad.  That message is again loud and clear to the players of the NFL, even if Zeke is exonerated.

[FreakFries]

Does anyone know when the ruling on jurisdiction will be made? 

 

Thats the one that really scares me. 

 

It seems like the NFL has a pretty good case there.

[Dylanfan66]

If zeke gets suspended he would be back for what week 11?  Plenty of time to ramp up for the playoffs.

[Asian Sensation]

14 minutes ago, Dylanfan66 said:

If zeke gets suspended he would be back for what week 11?  Plenty of time to ramp up for the playoffs.

 

[Lord_Varys]

Feels like Zeke is going to be running with a weight on his shoulders all year. It must be really hard to try to carry the load for your team when you have this unsettled in the back of your mind. I know it'd be hard for me to focus on my job if I had a huge legal case on the horizon. Then again we are in different lines of work. 

 

It does appear Henderson violated the CBA by not allowing relevant evidence to be entered. Whether or not the 2nd circuit respects that? We'll have to wait and see. 

 

Edit to add... This team looks really pass happy this year. Wonder if they worked on a new offense all summer because they assumed they'd need to learn how to do it (ie they assumed Zeke would be missing significant time)? Only running 30 something percent of the time so far.  And that's not just game script. We saw that as game plan right out of the gate in both games. Really frustrating as a fan of good football. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Lord_Varys

[burninglegs]

11 hours ago, jonasdash said:

@burninglegs  I don't want to clog this thread up with discussion on legalities, but Clement's assertations are of course going to be favoring the NFL - he's their lawyer.  If you review the actual documents that Judge Mazzant submitted with his issuance of the injunction, you'll see that it was ripe for review when the ruling was made and that article 46 does not give Goodell/Arbiter the ability to issue rulings without proper fairness being given.  

here are some pics of the most relevant parts:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJxpIrjUMAANKTf.jpg 
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJxrUOBVYAAVXXg.jpg 
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJPEyN7UIAAVzeU.jpg 
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJPDFqcVAAEvKtQ.jpg  

That said, the 5th Circuit will make their ruling and we'll see, but I think there is plenty of reason to think NFLPA's case has merit. 

 

You don't want to clog this thread up with legalities? All of your posts in this thread have been about legalities, have they not?

 

I responded to to you because you said the CBA requires specifics of due process to be met. This incorrect as Article 46 of the current CBS has no requirement of due process other than the one discovery obligation as posted above. There is no specifics of due process or procedures. If the court has any consistency, they will go back and rely on the 2nd Circuits ruling on the issue of the NFLPA vs NFL abased on the current CBA. The NFLPA has given Goodall all the power and per the CBA Goodell can do just about anything he wants. Zeke has no right to due process or anything else that one might have in a criminal case as he is under the CBA. 

 

Finally Mazzant overstepped his bounds in a issue that was still in arbitration by getting involved in this case prior to when he should have which also violates the CBA. Lots of ways for the 5th Circuit to rule in favor of the NFL on this one.